0053 MT Salman Arif QnA with Troy [00:00:00] ​ Speaker: Welcome to The Mystic Tye, a podcast for Freemasons. I am your host, Troy Spreeuw You can find us online at mystictye.com Email me feedback, guest suggestions, and any other questions at troy@mystictye.com. You could support us on Patreon at patreon.com/mystictye. I probably shouldn't be allowed to answer simple questions. Speaker: Brother Salman Arif sat down to ask me about Freemasonry, symbolism, and the deeper side of the craft. Naturally, we ended up [00:01:00] discussing secret Freemasonry in Pakistan, magical diaries, and invisible friends. A normal evening around here. We get into the twenty-four inch gauge, Crowley and Qabalah, why keeping a journal matters, and why reading an AI summary absolutely does not count as reading the damn book. Speaker: Mostly though, we talk about doing the work, thinking for yourself, and discovering what happens when you actually take Masonic symbolism seriously. Apparently, I have opinions You have been warned Troy Spreeuw: How you doing this evening? Salman Arif: I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me here Troy Spreeuw: Now you and I have been talking a little bit lately, and we thought we would just circle around turn the microphones on and talk for a while Salman Arif: That's right Troy Spreeuw: and see what comes up. I think it is [00:02:00] fair comment that maybe I'm not as easily approachable by guys. I have a bit of a reputation th- this is a way for guys who don't feel the nerve, the, the nerve to just come up and ask me some very simple questions. Troy Spreeuw: Th- we're not gonna record a preamble. I'm not sure even what we're gonna do with this. Salman Arif: Ja Troy Spreeuw: I'm just gonna let you ask me questions. Now, you did listen to my interview with my creative guy, Art Szabo. What'd you think of that? Salman Arif: Yeah. that was a very interesting conversation, and I really did enjoy-- speaking, I just enjoy listening to whatever you have to say and 'cause it's usually something very interesting. Salman Arif: Yeah, and I think you're being unfair to yourself. It's not that you have a reputation. You're just a busy guy, and I get it. And I'm a pesterer, as see, it only took four years. Here we are Troy Spreeuw: Yeah. And I, did I signed your paperwork to join the Duke of Connaught Lodge, did I not? Salman Arif: You [00:03:00] weren't one of the sponsors, but I believe you definitely vouched for me once we had a conversation or two. I'm not sure whether you write that down somewhere or not, but yeah, you were there, among other things. Salman Arif: No, I was just gonna say it's safe to say that I had a very good start to my journey, Troy Spreeuw: Well, that's it. Salman Arif: part of it, yeah Troy Spreeuw: So you-- do you have questions for me that w- that you would like to have answered? Why don't you go ahead and ask Salman Arif: up in that situation anyway, right? So yeah, there's always something I wanna know, and then most people don't usually talk about such things. But I feel like you definitely are not just very knowledgeable, but also very keen on discussing some of the deeper aspects of the symbology and the metaphors that come in Freemasonry in general. Salman Arif: And for me, that's always been the most important part, the richness, the, the detail is what I'm really interested in. Troy Spreeuw: I don't normally add a caveat to any of my podcasts, but I'm gonna add one now. These... anything I express today are my own [00:04:00] opinions. They are always mine own opinions, and I don't speak from any particular office, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: position or authority. Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: as my friend Trevor McKeown will often say, "An obscure Freemason of no authority," and that's my favorite. Troy Spreeuw: We're just two brothers talking, right? Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: and you're a Master Mason, and I'm a Master Mason, so we're, as we would say, Salman Arif: On the Troy Spreeuw: the level. Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: And that nobody's inferior or superior. We're just talking about ideas. Now, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: I have-- I've done the reading. I've spent close to 30 years starting off in the conspiracism. Troy Spreeuw: If you count all the conspiracism reading, like that's more like 40 years, 'cause I was 10, 11, 12 when I read things like The Temple and the Lodge and Holy Blood, Holy Grail. But I don't know how well-informed you are after reading books like that. That's more like [00:05:00] misinfo- misinformed. Salman Arif: Aha Troy Spreeuw: you're set on a path to go looking for things, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: That the, the answers are never black and white. Troy Spreeuw: It's never up or down, yes or no and your opinions on such things tend to change. Y- yeah. Salman Arif: And I think I have a similar experience probably. I wasn't so well-read at 12 I'll say that. But at about 15, 16, I was an expert Googler, you could say. And, back in those days when my grandfather was still alive and he-- as I told you in our conversations, he was part of Freemasonry back in Pakistan as well, until they got disbanded for obvious reasons, right? There were a couple of things that really surprised him, 'cause I just randomly started searching stuff online and, I was... I like to think that even at that age, I had the mental capacity to discern between what a conspiracy theory is versus what it would actually be about. [00:06:00] And I came across some, very secret words and things like that, and I explained these to him, and he was shocked. Salman Arif: He's like how do you know this?" He's like, "No, you're not supposed to know this." I'm like I'm sorry, Granddad, everything's on Google." He's like it doesn't really matter much whether you know this or not, because you don't understand the meaning behind it. And I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to discuss this with you, and not even your grandmother. Salman Arif: So you're gonna be the last person I ever tell anything to." And he took that to his grave for sure. I really wish he was alive now, and I could discuss so many things that I've learned over the years with him. It is how it Salman Arif: is. Troy Spreeuw: Were they meeting in the lodge like secretly underground? Salman Arif: I did ask him that, and he said yes, there were people-- there were still members of the lodge that used to meet privately in homes now. And it was rare. It was like maybe twice or thrice in a year. and I believe he didn't give it too much importance as to say that maybe he was no longer so participative because, in Pakistan it just... Salman Arif: it can become [00:07:00] a, a whole thing. And if somebody even Troy Spreeuw: Risky. Salman Arif: yeah Troy Spreeuw: I would imagine it's risky. You'd be accused of being a sorcerer, Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: right? Salman Arif: So exactly. And so funny you say that because the nickname they gave to the lodge over there was Jadoo Ghar, which means magic house, Troy Spreeuw: Yeah Salman Arif: And then somebody, and my uncle, so my dad's youngest brother, he actually knew the guy who threw the first Molotov cocktail at that building. yeah. So w-well, joke's on him 'cause it's a brick building. It didn't really burn down, but there was a lot of there was a lot of wood in there, and ironically, they turned that into a civil servant's office for the municipal the provincial government, which it still acts as right now. Salman Arif: But you can still see the pillars, you can still see the exact design and the dimensions and all, so it's very nice when you go in front of it. You're like, "Yeah, that does not belong there," but it does because built around the 1800s, by the British, right? And there's a lot of older [00:08:00] monuments in my city, Lahore which was a very vibrant and still is one of the most popular and populous cities of that region. it was just very interesting for me 'cause when I started looking up these things, I really understood that I'm into more of, The status never appealed to me. Like even now, it's like I don't like showing off that I'm a Freemason. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's like, what's the point of that? Salman Arif: I could get so many other accolades that would probably resonate further with people than this. In fact, this kind of makes me look a bit creepy to some people 'cause they just don't know what it's about, right? But it was more about the spirituality, the esoteria, and And I'm sorry I'm just rambling, but I just wanna give you a little background here before we Salman Arif: get Troy Spreeuw: No, I asked. Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: Wouldn't, I wouldn't ask if I didn't care Salman Arif: Yeah. I appreciate that. So my granddad, he used to quote entire chapters and verses f- from poetry and speeches in English, Persian, Arabic Latin as [00:09:00] well. And it wasn't a superficial knowledge he possessed. He was really, really, really well read and then w- lo and behold, it eventually came to, I'm like I was interested in astrology and numerology and that sort of a thing. Salman Arif: And that it exactly has a lot of connection with directly, but he was a master of that. He would do entire numerology charts connected with my birth chart and things like that. And it was just so accurate and surprising to me. I never got into the tarot conversation with him, but he was definitely a very good palmist. Salman Arif: He had a few books and very good sound knowledge about that. I don't know to what level that is held as important nowadays, but definitely very important back in South Asia, right? And yeah, he just told me that, I, my readings got a bit too serious, so I completely stopped doing it. Salman Arif: It ended up changing cer- certain people's lives, and I just felt like I, I don't need that burden. Salman Arif: Yeah, so that sort of a Salman Arif: thing. So w- very mysterious and, I don't know, like a little foggy in my mind, the whole memory but very [00:10:00] vivid. Troy Spreeuw: And that's your dad's father? Salman Arif: Yeah, Troy Spreeuw: And it didn't rub off on your dad at all? Salman Arif: My dad was AMORC Troy Spreeuw: oh, AMORC. Salman Arif: yeah, Troy Spreeuw: Yeah, he was a member of AMORC. Okay, so it did rub off on him Salman Arif: wrong for me. Exactly. So he was a member of that when he was in Nigeria, actually. They had a few chapters there in those days. So he used to go there. And from the beginning, the only thing I've heard about religion in my house is that, "Hey, look, there's good in all of these, so don't dwell on any one single one. Salman Arif: If you wanna understand anything, you have to understand everything." And so we had all of the books in the home. And I... You know something? The about 500 books on different topics, I brought those with me to Canada. They're in my storage locker here. So these are books from the '60s that his, he collected, and before that too. Salman Arif: It even has the complete James Bond novel collection, the originals. I think they're third editions by Ian Fleming, so Salman Arif: They must be worth something. But, Troy Spreeuw: fleming had some passing interest in esotericism in there, See, while there was a few books around here with because [00:11:00] of inv- his involvement, supposed involvement with MI6, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: that using of the 007, that was fa- quite famously the signature of John Dee, the Queen's Eyes. The Queen's Eyes, it was his spectacles over a salute. Salman Arif: Yeah, I've read that Troy Spreeuw: like the patron saint of MI6. And so people involved esotericism often has crossover espionage and intelligence work. Although I'm no expert, I've read a number of books on the subject, and I find it quite fascinating, the whole idea of being somebody who you aren't and ch- choosing characteristics to focus on and project, projecting an image, a different image of yourself. Troy Spreeuw: The the sort of magical, yeah, the magical work of laying a geas or a quest on somebody or being able to use a glamor to, to, this, people can't see you or the practices Crowley used to get into about trying to be invisible, these sorts of things. Salman Arif: Yeah, I've read that too, actually. That's right. [00:12:00] Also, it's interesting you talk about projecting something. The CIA has a whole series of anybody can read these files on the CIA website now, but about astral projection and clairvoyance and things like that. So Troy Spreeuw: The MKUltra experiments Salman Arif: that was another one Salman Arif: too, Troy Spreeuw: a number, yeah. They have done quite a bit of work on on the forgotten sciences, I would say. The m- the, the, on the fringes, on the margins of of materialism. Anyway Salman Arif: That's right. Yeah. That, if they feel like they they can invest millions into something like this, it must be important, right? Must be something to it. not. Anyway Troy Spreeuw: certainly something to it. It's what are you accessing, Salman Arif: Exactly. Troy Spreeuw: right? And what is the nature of consciousness? Like even what is the nature of realizing something? Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: The difference between I was just looking at this today, the difference between ontology and [00:13:00] etymology, right? What is what is your viewpoint on a part- on the particular ways of seeing things, and how do you believe you are learning something or perceiving something? Troy Spreeuw: How is perception to be understood? And these are very old philosophical questions that Students of the Work, and I use that term a lot, I would say capital S Students, Troy Spreeuw: Students of the Work end up becoming familiar with these terms because you're gonna cross, you're gonna cross these terms as you're experimenting with your own inner life, your own inner experience, right? Salman Arif: Yeah. Of course, I think Magnum Opus, is that the right Latin term for Salman Arif: great, Salman Arif: work? Troy Spreeuw: The Great Work, yeah. Salman Arif: Exactly. Troy Spreeuw: Yep Salman Arif: I've run a- come across that quite a few times. To make this a bit more concrete, Troy, 'cause I don't want you dozing off on me, but Salman Arif: I just don't see your s- usual soda can on you, right? So that's Troy Spreeuw: Oh, what do you mean? This, this caffeine-free, the [00:14:00] caffeine-free soda can, it's right here. Salman Arif: Oh, caffeine Troy Spreeuw: No caff, I will always... That anything after noon, sometimes I will allow myself to have a caffeinated soda in the afternoon, and then I really wounteded it up. You asked the guy who interviewed me on Monday what kind of energy level I was. Troy Spreeuw: It's 'cause I had coffee and caffeinated diet soda that day, and I was a wo- a wound it up. We even... Salman Arif: need it. Troy Spreeuw: No, we even joked about taking meth, 'cause I think I would've needed, Salman Arif: that Salman Arif: on that, Troy Spreeuw: I would've needed the meths to feel any more wound up than then Salman Arif: what I like with something that I really enjoyed you said on that, that podcast was I wish, and it was related to the meth. It was in the same breath, actually. The it was I wish I didn't have to sleep for nine hours so I could just re-sit up and read more, Troy Spreeuw: Read books. Salman Arif: Yeah, Troy Spreeuw: yes. Or people that donate money to my Patreon or buy more forklifts so I can stay home and read more books. I'm already surrounded by more books. [00:15:00] Some of these books are f- I've got the Lewis Masonic stock on the lower shelf sort of behind me, the stuff that's sideways, side face, that stuff for sale. Troy Spreeuw: The really good stuff is to the left and the right of me as you stand in my library, and maybe one day you'll get invited in here to see some of the really good stuff. But I already have, I think, in here... maybe not. I think I'll pr- I've consumed most of what's against this wall. Salman Arif: I Troy Spreeuw: Pro- probably 1,200 volumes, I would say. Troy Spreeuw: And there's considerably more than that, but I get rid of stuff. Salman Arif: Ja. Troy Spreeuw: Stuff that I really like or think I might like, this is the dumbest thing ever, but stuff I think I might read again, like in whole, I keep copying. And I got a selection of Bibles here. Salman Arif: Ja Troy Spreeuw: I've read through the King James. I had a, a gold New King James Version that I read as a teenager thrice, three times. Troy Spreeuw: But, whatever. Salman Arif: Okay Troy Spreeuw: And but I have a red letter one that I like to use, and I have other translations and some [00:16:00] concordances and some multi-language concordances that they're here. But the, like I could say I already own more books than I'll read, 'cause I have Troy Spreeuw: Several thousand stored. But that's not necessarily true, and what I find myself doing now, and I was just talking about this on the, on one of the podcasts the other day, I can't even remember. Troy Spreeuw: I'm very self-referential. I just talked about this. Th- Salman Arif: Yes Troy Spreeuw: is I will get the, get my agent to summarize what's in the book and all that... It just pisses me off, especially if I don't have time to read that book, 'cause I read the summary, I'm like, "Fuck, I'd like to read that book." Salman Arif: Yeah, I know Salman Arif: what you mean. Troy Spreeuw: And the, I know I know that there are places in the world right now where people are like, "The summary's good enough." Troy Spreeuw: The summary is not good enough. Salman Arif: No, Troy Spreeuw: Stop it. Salman Arif: it. never is Troy Spreeuw: don't... Reading 50 or 100 summaries, you're still gonna be... You're not gonna be any kind of PhD student. You're still gonna be just [00:17:00] stupid. You're dumb. G- go, go read 10 books is better than reading the summaries of 50 books, you dope. Salman Arif: That's so true Troy Spreeuw: But it's just one of these things with all these Lewis Masonic books I've been selling, and the authors I've been interviewing. I'm trying to get ahead of it even before the books come out, and so I have to read a summary to conduct an interview to sound like I have any idea of what's going on. Troy Spreeuw: But then all it does is just add to my pile. I've got, Salman Arif: I know. Troy Spreeuw: right now, I've got four volumes I'm reading, 'cause I finished a couple, but I had six until recently. Troy Spreeuw: When I read through Crowley's Book 4 and Magic Without Tears. Some of the stuff I've had to go back and read and reread. It takes a lot. Same with Vision and the Voice, which is quite beautiful, but a lot of it's really impenetrable if you're trying to glean extra stuff from it. Troy Spreeuw: Even reading it with the footnotes, you're just like, "What?" Salman Arif: Right. Troy Spreeuw: But more than the reading is practicing some of the stuff. Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: And having, having [00:18:00] studied the, the Western mystical tradition, the esoteric tradition Peterson's grimoires have been hugely influential. I've had a number of teachers that have taught me specific things Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: that have been really quite powerful. Troy Spreeuw: And then working with the spiritual forces that I'm aligned with, th- that-- getting, getting your practice to the point where you can have that is a potent thing. And I would just... It sounds airy-fairy, but people should keep their own counsel, they should keep a journal, they should keep reading, and they should keep trying because there is there's there's forces reaching back to to reach out to you, and most people are completely unaware Salman Arif: Yep. Troy Spreeuw: Those spiritual forces are out there trying to communicate. Salman Arif: Oblivious is the right word for that. They just even notice it Troy Spreeuw: It's just easier to have somebody else tell you what to do [00:19:00] about that than it is to practice anything on your own. And it's dangerous, like historically been quite dangerous to even give voice to this idea. Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: so again, depending on where you are and who you live with and what, what part of the world you're living in and what time there's a-- I'm fairly independent here that I can say these things out loud, but I would caution people to be careful about speaking too openly about such things. Troy Spreeuw: And Salman Arif: yeah. Troy Spreeuw: I, I- Salman Arif: I totally agree with that. And I'll say one more thing. Especially, Troy Spreeuw: yeah, you grew up in Pakistan. I don't need to, I don't need, I don't need to explain the, the physical threat of, having different ideas from other people Troy Spreeuw: Although according to certain Masonic authors that I respect, apparently I'm the right person to ask if you wanna know what possible grimoires this type of magic or system might have come out of. What grimoires did they have access to? Troy, do you reference any of this stuff? And it's like, [00:20:00] and I'm like, "Why are you asking me?" Troy Spreeuw: It's like you have the cross-section of the knowledge that might be able to keep up with that. So Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: that's, the kind of stuff I'm interested in. Salman Arif: agree with these people. I believe if I were to have a question about the in- validity of any of these texts, I would first come to you before Google, right? And the reason being that Google can be filled up with perspectives of a lot of people that I don't really agree with. Whereas with you, I understand where you come from and the thoroughness that you put into all of these things, and not a lot of people have the mental capacity to do it. Salman Arif: I'm not saying they're not intelligent enough, maybe it's a combination of intelligence and passion together, and that's what creates that fire that I feel like you do have, and that's where it all comes from. Which is why, you brought on a topic just a little while ago in this conversation, which I feel like maybe we should touch a bit more, and that is keep a journal. Okay? Now, as a... it's like the very first step based on what you told me as well. It's like that's where you start, first, [00:21:00] make sure you organize and record your thoughts, right? W- what would you say with a little bit more detail, how, what kind of a journal should an individual in this side of the fence create? Salman Arif: What should one begin with? Is it just dear diary or is there more to it? Troy Spreeuw: There's a good book by Crowley, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: (Aleister Crowley And the Practice of the Magical Diary)," and I would suggest that any student of the work get a copy. You can get them, you can get them for a few bucks used on Amazon or I, you can get them at I think Banyan Books will have something like that in stock or go and download the PDF and read it for free from Hermetic. Troy Spreeuw: But the practice of magical diary, Crowley goes into it quite extensively, so I don't feel the need to cover that again. Salman Arif: Yeah. Salman Arif: Okay Troy Spreeuw: However the idea behind it, it-- in Freemasonry, w- we talk about the working tools in English emulation work, and the first tool placed in the hands of the workman is the 24-inch gauge, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: right? Troy Spreeuw: And it's divided into 24 [00:22:00] sections, Salman Arif: Yep. Troy Spreeuw: right? And so it alludes to the division of one's day to, de- depending which tradition, three or four tr- prayer, labor, refreshmant, and sleep, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: Are the or the, the, the proper ways to divide your day. There's an allusion, however, it, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: to an esotericist and to a scientist, an empiricist and I consider myself, especially when dealing with the outside world I'm quite positivistic or scientific and rational, even a rationalist. Troy Spreeuw: My inner life is different than that, but when dealing with your fellow man and dealing with the outside world, and I differ from other occultists in this in this area, so please take this with a grain of salt. Once again, these are my opinions and my opinions alone. Troy Spreeuw: This is, the 24-inch gauge is an allusion to the first tool of science, and it's covered in the, the idea of the sword. Troy Spreeuw: The suit of swords in the tarot covers this, and that the sword is representative of the number eight and intellect, [00:23:00] right? And the god Hermes. The idea of and the suit and the idea of air. So all of these sort of meanings present one thing. The intellect is very quick. It moves around a lot like quicksilver. Troy Spreeuw: The intellect also is limited, and this is what rationalism and positivism is extremely limited because by using measuring tools and assuming a locality so that you can isolate something one thing from everything else and measure it, the first thing you have to do is invent a measuring tool Salman Arif: I see where you're going with this. Troy Spreeuw: Right. As, Salman Arif: Nice. Troy Spreeuw: Because I've told you this. So Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: the first tool you place in the hands of the workman is a 24-inch gauge so that he can calculate the time and effort it's going to cost to complete the work, right? Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: This is-- If you are not writing things down in a journal, the intellect is going to just because it's slippery and lazy often, it's gonna [00:24:00] lose things that you've learned. Troy Spreeuw: You need to write things down that you found important, and you need to quantify them as, as measurable as you can. And even though the inner life, the, the spiritual life, so to speak or the your own personal development, it's hard to apply those tools to your inner life. And in Freemasonry, we say apply them to our morals, but I think it's implying further work. Troy Spreeuw: You need your thoughts coalesced through writing in a book so that you can go back and learn from yourself and see yourself growing and changing. This is a motivational tool to motivate, because you'll go back and be like, "Boy, I was dumb." Troy Spreeuw: How dumb I'll feel I was 10 years from now if I keep writing this stuff down. Troy Spreeuw: Because, Salman Arif: true. Troy Spreeuw: And it also, these cumulative journals, the language you talk to yourself with, becomes that measuring tool. Troy Spreeuw: Now it is not an end in itself. It's a means to an end, [00:25:00] and the m- and the end is to eventually overcome the reliance on science strictly, right? Salman Arif: Right Troy Spreeuw: To, go, as Lon would say, go crazy in a socially acceptable manner. Troy Spreeuw: Today we were just talking about the working tools and Salman Arif: Ja Troy Spreeuw: how much you could take just from that one working tool, the 24-page. There's so much. Salman Arif: There is so Troy Spreeuw: There's so much there Salman Arif: It is. There is. But my concern has been over the past few years that I feel like, and I've visited a few lodges now, so I can't say it's ours or theirs or anybody else's, but I've noticed that more often than not the, the politics of it all, and just the responsibilities that are bestowed, parenthesis, on you are essentially greater than anything else. Salman Arif: And when it comes to actual learning, when you ask people, they just don't seem very interested. And it's the word I used with our current [00:26:00] Worshipful Master was disillusioned is the word that I use for something like that. It's like I'm serious about this. Troy Spreeuw: Yes Salman Arif: but, a- and I wanna learn the deeper things too. Salman Arif: I wanna m- make sure I understand. But it's not just my reading. I wanna see how you reflected on that thought. Compare notes, out things like that, because wasn't it true that the very earliest lodges, even though it was mostly a festive board for the stonecutters and so forth, they would sit down and discuss ideas which eventually developed into different, and evolved into what we have now. But the whole purpose was to sit down together and talk about things. It wasn't just the ritual itself, right? And in fact, there probably wasn't any ritual back in those days. It developed over time. And I feel like we're definitely missing that a lot. W- what do you think? 'Cause you don't need any motivation to go out and start reading stuff, 'cause that's who you are as a person. But if we're definitely trying to make good men better, some [00:27:00] people don't have a knack for that naturally, right? But you want to inculcate those skills or that interest. And some people, you just don't know what you don't know. And they come at Freemasonry from fraternity and, good people and good place to be at. But if we definitely want everybody to be going into a particular direction, wouldn't direction be something that should be given as well? That's something I feel like it's missing. Troy Spreeuw: Sure. Okay I have strong opinions on this. First of all, the magic works whether you want it to or not. Salman Arif: Yeah, sure Troy Spreeuw: So one of the, one of the things critics will say is "Oh, Freemasonry, you guys are over there," whatever nefarious thing we're doing. And, we're teaching the, the tenets and precepts of living a good philosophical-like life in the Greek philosophical sense. Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: But from another standpoint, because of the way we teach it, we're tapping into, again, in my opinion, we're tapping into an older tradition that [00:28:00] isn't a historical connection necessarily. It's a, it's an unconscious connection that, that happens when the lessons are given in such a manner, an older man to a younger man, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: And a, in a particular manner with a particular repetition, and these lessons will stick. Troy Spreeuw: And I believe some of the changes that are meant to be wrought in the student are done whether they choose to be involved or not. They're not-- they're just by choosing to join, you're changed for the better Salman Arif: I see where you're going with that. Troy Spreeuw: but that's only a tiny little fraction of what's available Salman Arif: Ja. Troy Spreeuw: to a student that wants to study the material. Troy Spreeuw: But just not every Catholic is going to be a priest or a monk or a nun, not every Freemason is going to be a hardcore Rosicrucian or a Martinist or a [00:29:00] ceremonial magician. Lots of us are attracted to this school and then branch off into these some rather obscure and very strange concordant bodies or secret organizations within. Troy Spreeuw: And there's nothing nefarious going on. I've seen some sort of cult leader behavior with some people but you see that everywhere. I've had difficulties with that in other organizations. So Salman Arif: Yeah. I'd say go to the local church or Troy Spreeuw: y- you're-- human, human, yeah, human, human nature is such, esp- especially with spirituality and the mysteries where one is not required to produce any evidence, right? You're just trying to convince people of a certain viewpoint. And I dep- the, one of our lodge brothers really hates it when I minimize it this way, but I'll say, "My invisible friend says X, so y- you must do whatever," right? Troy Spreeuw: And he's like, "There's a whole faith tradition behind it." It's [00:30:00] yes, but it comes down to just basically the strongest guy in the room saying, Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: invisible friend says X, so you must obey." And I just... Part of my spiritual tradition is to reject that idea and contact the spiritual forces directly. Troy Spreeuw: That's... and so Salman Arif: I know what you mean. Yeah Troy Spreeuw: I believe that the contrarian position of Freemasonry, this third way that we espouse, is directly this. It's don't listen to other people, don't listen to past tradition. You reach out and get instruction directly. Now, that's gonna sound airy-fairy and weird. It is, I'll admit that. Troy Spreeuw: But I'm not also telling other people what my invisible friend is telling me. That's my-- That's between me and my invisible friend, right? Or friends, Troy Spreeuw: If there's more than one. But, Salman Arif: more than one, Salman Arif: yeah Troy Spreeuw: it's, it's-- And I'm tipping my hand here, but I [00:31:00] just want people to know, 'cause it's too late for me right? Troy Spreeuw: There's already enough people dislike my philosophical viewpoint, and that's fine. They're allowed to be wrong. That's okay. Salman Arif: Sure. Troy Spreeuw: I just wanna be left alone, to do my work. And if I have to talk about such things with other students, I'm not gonna argue, like the famous argument, the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. Troy Spreeuw: These sorts of things. And same it- it's common in certain philosophical circles to argue about things that don't much matter. And I- I'm not interested in arguing about those things. I'll stick to my own journal, my own reading, the limits and proportions of my own being, right? And try and figure that out. Troy Spreeuw: Now, all that said, I will listen to lots of other people, and I'm super curious about what other people's experiences are. [00:32:00] And sometimes it's hard to s- it's hard to hide the eye roll when some people... but it's their experience Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: in their manifest universe, right? It's their experience of the union of the god and the goddess to form the point-event. Troy Spreeuw: And now, see, this is where I don't wanna go down the rabbit hole into very specific types of ontology that will separate my particular philosophy from the vast majority of people who might ever turn this podcast on. Salman Arif: I get it. I Troy Spreeuw: Because Salman Arif: it. Troy Spreeuw: I believe that the systems, and I just said this out loud to another brother, the systems put in place by past spiritual teachers, all of the systems are legitimate. Troy Spreeuw: The teachings are a good idea. The practice is excellent. These teachers were an exemplar. They weren't meant to be worshiped. They were meant to be imitated. Salman Arif: [00:33:00] Yeah Troy Spreeuw: and the idea is that y- that Luke, that quote I'm always making, and now this is Jesus, I'm tipping my hand a bit. Luke 17:21, "That for some will say lo here and lo there, but Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: I will tell you the kingdom of God is inside you." Salman Arif: Inside you. Yeah Troy Spreeuw: then you Salman Arif: that very Salman Arif: well. Troy Spreeuw: Go read all the theological headstands that the last couple of thousand years have come up with to explain what they mean by that, and then go sit and contemplate what you think the spiritual forces behind that particular teacher were trying to impart. Troy Spreeuw: And then go form your own opinion. Salman Arif: Exactly. Troy Spreeuw: Because Salman Arif: you Salman Arif: there Troy Spreeuw: there's lots of, there's lots of other ways that could be taken and considered and could be life-changing Salman Arif: So my profound or controversial thought was, and I think you're alluding to exactly the same, is that every single messenger, prophet, messiah, whatever, did it for [00:34:00] themselves and reached that level of enlightenment, and then everybody else was just so impressed by what of person they had become that they wrote stories and books about them. And somehow over the generations with Chinese whisper and no, this and that, it's become like Troy Spreeuw: A game of telephone Salman Arif: Yeah. And that's just ultimately what it comes to. So when you said, "I'd rather talk to the spiritual the spirit world myself," I resonate with that very much of course of the things that I've noticed though is people skip the first step, which is first yourself psychologically, 'cause apparently this can be a very strong force that you're interacting with, and you have to rise up to the occasion rather than pull it down to your own self, right? Troy Spreeuw: Yeah. Learn. Salman Arif: to that? Troy Spreeuw: Yeah, "Learn first, O thou who aspirest under our ancient order, that equilibrium is the basis of the work. Thou thyself is not a sure foundation whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of nature." Yes. But, Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: don't think... Look [00:35:00] I'm particularly well-balanced, I would say. Troy Spreeuw: I converted myself to a Christian faith when I was 12, and we switched to a more high control faith when I was, like, 15, 16, and then I left it less than 10 years later to pursue other avenues. And I have no, no problems. I still study Christian mysticism quite a bit, and some of my best friends are Christian mystics of one form or another. Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: but the issue I have with so much organized religion is it is it seems like it's more meant to interfere than edify. And that's what brings me to Freemasonry, that maybe originally it was meant to be Christian mysticism, but at some point the, the m- the mysticism seems to have gone beyond the old ways of doing one type of Christian mysticism. Troy Spreeuw: And now the systems approach will work with any [00:36:00] approach, and you don't need a particular theological viewpoint to apply the tools to your morals and Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: get a lot out of the brotherhood. Salman Arif: Hmm Troy Spreeuw: Now, I've gotta go back to something you were talking about before. It is a lot. It's a lot to be involved in your lodge. Troy Spreeuw: But you will get more out of what you put in. You will always get more And Freemasonry is I warn people, the Freemasonry will take exactly as much as you will give it. So you-- that, that caution to family and your w- your work first is a s- is a good one, right? Salman Arif: Yeah, Salman Arif: I agree. Troy Spreeuw: I've been producing podcast episodes now every week for eight months. Troy Spreeuw: It is very difficult to keep that from... And the posting about it and the planning for it and the communicating about it, to keep that from interfering with my day job, right? And seeing a time where it'll support [00:37:00] itself, maybe, but it, it's a long way off. And one has to have some discipline. Troy Spreeuw: And it's the same with the craft because, like the guy who brought me in, John Gibson, he was a member of eight lodges plus concordant bodies. He could be out six nights a week. The only reason he wouldn't go out on Sunday nights is 'cause traditionally lodges and concordant bodies are dark on Sundays here. Troy Spreeuw: Right? It's just a, a guy like that was out all the time. And, but his wife had predeceased him by about 10 years, right? Salman Arif: So he Salman Arif: had the time as well. Troy Spreeuw: for him, yeah, he was retired and he had a good pension and he was a great guy and everybody liked him and he was good at ritual. Like he, he was just a really good f- like almost like a full-time Freemason. Troy Spreeuw: But not everybody gets to do that. But if that's what you're here to do, God bless you. But there are others that are interested in developing a, a spiritual approach to the work, and they don't necessarily have to bite off and swallow the entirety of any particular [00:38:00] group or cult or religious dogma in order to attain. Troy Spreeuw: I'm absolutely convinced of it. And I know it sounds awfully theosophical of me, but I or Unitarian or w- whatever transgressive club of the day you Rosicrucian, whatever. Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: but I believe it to be true the religion on which all men can agree. Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: and we should be focusing on what unites us, not what divides us. Salman Arif: Correct. Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: and even in the subcultures that exist around the craft I get pushback because I'm into Thelema. I get plenty of pushback from certain quarters that are Martinists or Rosicrucians, and they just don't want people like me in the craft. I'm sorry, but if my existence offends you, that, that's not my problem. Troy Spreeuw: That's that's, it's, y- I'm not giving offense, you're taking offense, Salman Arif: I don't even understand what the big stance [00:39:00] against Thelema is for people because some of the mainstream religions themselves conflict so greatly with Christianity that one would think that, oh, you know what? These guys are worse. But no, it's like they're picking on you and what do you think it is? Troy Spreeuw: People don't openly pick on me. Salman Arif: Oh, Troy Spreeuw: they don't dare 'cause I got a terrible temper. It, and Salman Arif: of balance, right? Troy Spreeuw: it... look and I tend not to say really controversial things in public, right? This is about as far as I go. But even at that I might argue for a particular ontological viewpoint that I hold, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong or even change that. Troy Spreeuw: As I learn more and grow and study different stuff, my, Salman Arif: Yeah. Troy Spreeuw: my opinion on things changes, and I'm allowed to change. I don't... I, again, I'm not beholden to, to anything. It-- I'm just really not beholden to anything outside of [00:40:00] myself that I don't fully understand through my own experience. And I I it makes me a, a threat, so if that's what I am, then that's, again I am that I am, Salman Arif: Yeah. Salman Arif: I am that I am. Troy Spreeuw: right? Salman Arif: No I totally understand what you're saying, and yeah. I'm definitely going to look into reading some of the books that you've recommended to me. You know what I'm really looking forward to? The fall edition L- Lon's new book on, the old book in revised edition. Troy Spreeuw: Yeah. Salman Arif: again, on the tarot? Troy Spreeuw: So there is a, there, no, there's a new version of Chicken Qabalah coming out. Salman Arif: Chicken Qabalah. There Troy Spreeuw: I don't know that's been formally announced. I don't know if I'm allowed to announce that yet Salman Arif: You said it like 20 times on your podcast, so I guess Troy Spreeuw: I have no idea what you're talking about. Salman Arif: Wonderful Troy Spreeuw: I've never been to Belize Troy Spreeuw: Yeah I, I believe and like you don't wanna slow people down from ordering it now, but because [00:41:00] it's-- I think it's my favorite book on the Kabbalah and I find it very approachable and I think it, it's very teachable from that. And if that offends people, I'm sorry. I'm not here to offend you. Troy Spreeuw: You can go believe whatever you want to believe and I'll stick over here with what I know Salman Arif: ja. Should we end on that note? Is it Troy Spreeuw: Yeah. I think that's enough for one night. I've been standing now the better part of 15 hours, so it's time for me to lay my body down and then get up and do it all again tomorrow. Salman Arif: Sure Troy Spreeuw: like that, that Jackson Browne song, what is that? The, "The Pretender"? Salman Arif: I wouldn't know. Troy Spreeuw: And then when the morning light comes creeping in, I'll get up and do it again. Troy Spreeuw: Amen. Salman Arif: Though. You can edit this out if you like Salman Arif: but Troy Spreeuw: Yeah Salman Arif: are you going to start those workshops that you were talking about? Troy Spreeuw: So I, I'm gonna do, gonna run, when I get back from EFC or maybe before I go, Troy Spreeuw: Gonna run a survey to pick a night, like what night of the week and what night of the month. If it's fourth Sunday [00:42:00] or if it's third Monday, Salman Arif: Mhm. Troy Spreeuw: have to be compatible with, whatever, or maybe we rotate it. Troy Spreeuw: It's what, it's every third Sunday and then every fourth Sunday in alternating months. I'm gonna need to figure that out. And the idea would be to hold a class on Zoom and then and teach the Tarot and Qabalah class, maybe do a cycle of that or two. Troy Spreeuw: And then every third class or fourth class hold a live event where we broadcast it on Zoom, but hold it in a physical space here somewhere in the Lower Mainland. Troy Spreeuw: Yeah. Yeah. Salman Arif: Would love to be part of that. So whenever you actually plan it out, and also with Zoom, you could probably host it somewhere on some platform where members of that can eventually see the recorded versions as well, in case they can't join you in that particular day, right? Troy Spreeuw: Yeah, Salman Arif: leaves Troy Spreeuw: I'll be recording everything 'cause I capture everything. I don't always release it. It depends on how good I am that day. If I'm no good, [00:43:00] then you'll never... Salman Arif: yeah. Troy Spreeuw: I'm terrible, you're guaranteed you're not gonna see it. Or if I'm, if I sound too much like somebody else, no. I, if I s- if I wander into air or get real mad and get, wander into areas I shouldn't wander into, say things I shouldn't say start speaking in tongues or Salman Arif: Yeah Troy Spreeuw: speaking in Aramaic or something, then th- those will probably get edited Salman Arif: Sure. That's the benefit of these recorded things, right? You always have the benefit of hindsight. So that's excellent. Let me know, Troy, whatever you need. Again for your time. Really Salman Arif: appreciate it. Troy Spreeuw: sure Salman Arif: let's talk about this when you have time tomorrow or day after, and if you want to edit something, this and that, if you need my help with it, I'll be happy to do it. Troy Spreeuw: Sure. Thanks for having having the time to come ask me some questions Salman Arif: Of course. There's so many more, but your answers are so long that I can't ask them, right? Troy Spreeuw: Don't don't even start with me Salman Arif: Awesome. a good night, Troy. Get Troy Spreeuw: Thanks. Thanks, [00:44:00] Salman Salman Arif: Thank you. Bye-bye Speaker 2: Thanks for listening today. You can support the show by liking, sharing, and subscribing on your favorite podcast syndicator. Even more helpful, leave us a review. We are looking to create a directory of free Masonic events and publications. If you are aware of something coming up, please let me know by email. Speaker 2: In the meantime, check out the Masonic Conferences website at masonicconferences.com. Happening this week, Esotericism in Freemasonry Conference will be held on Saturday, September 19th. Our keynote speaker will be none other than Lon Milo DuQuette, author of The Tarot Architect. Brothers Ike Baker, Doug Russell, Dago Rodriguez, and Josef Wages are all slated to present. Speaker 2: Get your tickets at the door or at [00:45:00] esotericmasonry.com. For other events, check out our calendar at mystictye.com and don't forget to sign up for our newsletter while you are there. Graphics and web hosting are by Art Szabo Creative. A special thanks to Organist for our theme music. Happy to meet, sorry to part, and happy to meet again ​ ​